Pablo Laso to Area 52: the dinner with Ancelotti, Luka's adaptability and the mind of a wonderful coach
A living legend, former Real Madrid coach Pablo Laso, was special guest for Area 52
Pablo Laso, after his controversial departure from Real Madrid bench, is the real stone guest in Euroleague basketball. In this time as "unemployed" (it seems not for so much anymore...) he has decided to talk with Area 52, the Twitch channel held by our director Alberto Marzagalia with Andrea Solaini and Marco Pagliariccio.
During the stream, the Vitoria native touched many hot topics, talking about his basketball vision, in coaching role both on and off the court, his career with Real Madrid and general opinions about what's happening all around Europe in his absence, beyond so much unmissable stories and anecdotes.
Here it is the link to the original transmission, below you can find the full transcription of the interview.
Solaini: Good evening coach, and welcome to Area52. First question very easy… How many hours you spend during your week watching basketball games in this period?
"I'm a very close friend of Xavi Pascual and I remember I spoke with him in September I think, he told me: "Pablo you're gonna go crazy on the first month, watching every game, every situations, you're gonna go crazy! Then you will relax...". And it's a little bit like that, let's say now I become more selective, on Euroleague games and also on local leagues, but what is true is that I watch different basketball, different leagues, different situations. I watch Italian league, German league, Greek league... Probably when you're coaching, you don't have time to watch these games, now I spend a lot of hours watching basketball."
Marzagalia: I wanna talk about load management and a fully booked schedule, something that almost any EL Coach is talking about sooner or later. Last year I talked to Walter Tavares and I asked him if in his opinion it was better to play, from an Euroleague point of view, a very competitive national tournament as “la Liga” or an other less demanding, he said the first because in this way you never low your focus. What's your opinion about that and how did you manage all this situation?
"I'm not gonna kill Edy, because he's my former player. He was right. I think is important that every game is demanding as "la Liga" is, since you go to play against, let's say, Obradoiro away and you know it's gonna be a really though game, so you're forced to be at your best. And I think that's very important to have that kind of competition in every league, because that will help you to be ready for Euroleague games and also maintain that concentration all the time. For me what is worse as a coach is the feeling you have nit enough time for practice, and resting: players need to rest and need to work. I always do an example, if you're driving a car, you've to put gas in the car, you cannot drive forever, you cannot drive without the gas. A lot of time gas for a team is practicing and resting, with this schedule it's difficult, because now we're playing between 80-90 games a year, that's almost NBA schedule. It's difficult to handle, but at the same time it's important to understand that having a strong league can help you to have that concentration more time."
Pagliariccio: When you went to Madrid in 2011, you completely changed the identity of the team basically without changing a lot of players. It was a team that came from Ettore Messina, that has an idea of basketball completely different from yours. It took all the first season to complete that metamorphosis. What were the most difficult moment in that building process?
"Winning! Winning it's always difficult... (laughs, ed) Usually as coaches we always say things as "we need time, we need to improve, we need to get better...", but if you don't win, probably you won't have that. So it's very important winning and it would be very stupid as a coach not understanding that winning games is gonna help you. Here we have this soccer master, Jorge Valdano (former striker, coach and manager for Real Madrid FC, ed), who says "Ganàr es como una confianza màs", so that winning is gonna give you more confidence. I believe that the problem my first year was "What we have?", "What players do we have?", Real Madrid always have good players, but the matter was how do you get them on a system.
I had an idea of how we should be able to compete at the level we want, but we need to win, because Real Madrid doesn't let you go and say we're playing very well, but... No, we're not winning! Even my players at that time felt that way. It's normal that players think a little bit like that, but probably the main thing for a coach it's understanding that you have to create something, but at the same time you have to win. You can't say "let's give time to Pablo Laso, because he's developing the team". How many years? While we're losing every game, all of a sudden you will go out, take a coffee and say "maybe Pablo Laso is not that good...". Winning is important also because is the way you find a way to win, and that for me was very important when I arrived in Madrid, find a way where the team can grow up and win”.
Pagliariccio: I go back and back in the years... Many don’t know that your only experience outside of Spain, both as a player and as a coach, is the half season you had in Trieste. I remember I talked about that with the coach of that team, Cesare Pancotto, and he told me that there is so much of the Laso player in the Laso coach, both on the basketball side and on the human side. Do you agree with this and what memories do you have at that season, even if it wasn’t that good for you?
"My first kid was born in Trieste, I've great remembers of when I played there, of course with Cesare, but sincerely I played like shit!" (laughs, ed)
Pagliariccio: He told me the same! (laughs, ed)
"If I would be Cesare I would have kicked Laso out of the team much earlier. He had great patience with me, because I could not perform the way I used to play in Spain. It was a difficult year for me, because I didn't give my best, but at the same time it was a great experience for me.
For sure you give some of your personality to the teams that you coach and for sure the way you see basketball it's not gonna change. You have to adjust things, but it's true that at the end you become a coach with your personality and your ideas, that's not gonna change. Technically, I coached Marcus Slaughter at the five, and then I coached Edy Tavares, in Spanish we said "como un huevo y una manzana", they're totally different and you have to adjust. Your idea of basketball it's not gonna change, you have that, in my case, since 16, when I started professional basketball. That long career has not changed in one minute because, let's say, I got the Real Madrid job and so I have to change everything. I'm Pablo Laso and I will be me coaching Real Madrid or coaching whatever, that's who I am and I'm not gonna change."
Solaini: Maybe not everyone knows it, but Pablo Laso, before coaching, was a really good point-guard, he's still the best assist-man of the ACB history. A sort of Spanish Carlo Ancelotti, if the coach allows us this comparison...
"We went out for dinner one time, it was an other basketball coach, Ancelotti and me, in Madrid. Carlo's wife said: "go with them to see if you learn something!" (laughs, ed). And Carlo, who's a great guy, did like this... (pretend to raise his eyebrow as Ancelotti usually do, ed). He's a great guy, he's doing a great job, I really love the way he treats his players and his team, it was funny the day we went out for dinner. I know he was a great player also!"
Marzagalia: I move to something a little bit more technical, I remember a game last year before the Final Four in Gran Canaria where you added a 3-2 zone defense, very particular since Tavares was in the second line and was asked to close out on the corner shooters. This year we have seen Alba Berlin playing a full game “box and one” on Mike James, and Sergio Scariolo with something similar against Lorenzo Brown. I do not want to enter in these tactical situations, but I’m asking you when, as a Coach, you try to add something special to your team, something different from what you're regularly doing, do you do it because you feel it, because you need it or both?
"First of all, I think most of the coaches have a plan A, that if you're able to do it you think you're gonna win the game. But, this doesn't happen usually, so you need a plan B, plan C, plan D and you're lucky if you don't need your plan E during the year. That means that you have to coach your team for every situation, I can't say all of a sudden to play "box and one" to the team. We have to practice it, but we don't have too much time to practice, so it's important that we're able to do it on situation that are live.
I remember perfectly what you were talking, we played a lot of 3-2 in Granca before the Final Four, because that was the perfect time to prepare that, just in case we're gonna need it in the Final Four or in the playoffs. A lot of time you have to think of the situations that you're gonna need later on, and maybe that game wasn't a game where to play 3-2 zone, but we need to play it and to play it right, because it could be useful in the future. As a coach, you have to think ahead, you can't go out and say "let's go box and one against Lorenzo Brown" and it's gonna work, probably it doesn't.
You have to be ready, to show your team that you have the situations that you can use during the year, or during the game, that you already practiced. That doesn't mean that sometimes you're not gonna go to do something different, but it's difficult to implement something new on a moment, it's better that, somehow, you teach your players the way you wanna do it and give them the idea, just in case. Maybe you're not gonna need it, in fact we didn't use the 3-2 zone during the Final Four, but it's true that we used it a lot in that game in Gran Canaria. You follow me, it's not easy to see that!"
Marzagalia: Recently Malcolm Delaney and Errick McCollum talked about Euroleague being a “Coaches’ League” that can’t be transformed in “Players’ League”, they think that this could never happen because coaches are controlling everything, they are controlling what they eat, what they do the night, if their relatives or friends travel with the team when the play abroad and so on. Kris Clyburn added that “Overseas If you do not perform, they don’t care” putting the accent on european environment not caring about personal life of the players. Which is your opinion about this matter and which kind of limit do you think a Coach should have on his team and players?
"First I care about personal situations, I really care about personal situations. Because I think if you're not good on your lives, you're not gonna perform well. Delaney and McCollum, and I don't want to be too hard, if you think you're gonna come to Europe, and do whatever you want, you won't do it on Pablo Laso's team. Pablo Laso's team, whatever his name could be... Galatasaray or Real Madrid, for example, are bigger than Delaney and McCollum. No doubt, two of the best American players that have ever played in Europe, all my respect, but I don't think Delaney's gonna win games by himself, he's gonna win it with his teammates and with his team, everybody wants to help him.
For me it would be very stupid to talk about a "Coaches' League" and a "Players' league", it's a basketball league. And the way you make the team is the most important. I try with an example: for sure as a coach, you want to have the best players, you know why? Because at the end of the day, all the Coaches in Euroleague are gonna make the same points. Here I am, Pablo Laso, two times Euroleague winner, do you know how much baskets did I have score to win EL? Same as Obradovic, and he won nine times. So it's not a "Coaches' League". Zeljko won nine Euroleagues, did he win without Diamantidis scoring? Bodiroga played great, Batiste played great, in Madrid Sabonis played great. It's stupid to talk about a Players' league or a Coaches' league, for me that's philosophy, it's not like that, you have to be all together, at the end it should be a Club league.
Milano is above everything, Bologna is above everyone, above his coach and his players, Alba Berlin has much more history than any of the players, any of the coaches that we know. With all the respect for these players, I cannot agree, I can't agree with a Coaches' league and with a Players' league. Somehow we have to go, as we say in Spanish, "de la mano", we have to go together, and this is something that I believe in and it's not gonna change. And, when we talk about Clyburn, I really care about personal situations, I really do care, because if you want a guy to perform at his best, he has to be at his best personally, if he's having a personal problem, it's not gonna perform well, so it's normal that I care about personal situations."
Solaini: We're reading now a question from the live chat, what do you think about Milan and Bologna, their season and their project, and would you like to coach Virtus or Olimpia in the future?
"I think both teams had their ups and downs. Milan had a lot of injuries, and important ones that broke rhythm, they had to bring in new players, and it's always difficult for a coach to manage that. People think that a lot of times, when you have injuries and bring in a new player, he's gonna perform right away, but it's not like that, I think Ettore had lot of problems since the beginning with a lot of injuries and I heard now they win three games in a row, which is maybe normal. Probably now it's the best moment of their season, they didn't have injuries in the last month, so they could, let's say, play together for a while. It has been a difficult year for them and probably they had all those problems at the beginning where now it has become difficult to get to the EL Playoffs, they probably have to win all the remaining games.
Virtus with Sergio was different, it was pretty solid the whole year, with their ups and down. They were not playing good, but they were able to beat Madrid in Madrid, so they were having good performances and also games that everybody thinks Virtus would have won, and they have lost, and they look back. It shouldn't be in this way, but it was their first year in Euroleague, so they also need patience enough to understand they're playing a different league that they didn't play before.
Both in the Italian league are on the top of the standings, they're playing at good level in Italy and I think right now for them everything is open, besides the big surprise with Brescia winning the cup - a lot of respect for Alessandro, he's doing a great job and I'm very happy that he won! -, but now it has become the end of the Euroleague and RS and Virtus and Milan are probably bigger powerhouses over them. We'll see how everybody will respond at the end.
For me coaching next year in Italy I don't know, Marza (Alberto Marzagalia, ed) said my Italian is perfect, but I've a lot of respect for the coaches who're coaching in Italy, it's a great league, they're great friends, I watch many games and Italy has great competition. Milano and Virtus are great teams, both run by two great coaches."
Pagliariccio: We are watching every step of the growth of a generational talent like Wembanyama. He made the choice to stay out of Euroleague for his last season before the NBA. You had Doncic in the same situation, he stayed and competed and we all know how impactful he was in Euroleague and then in NBA. Do you prefer one path or an other?
"I'm gonna go quick on this, I would take Luka's way. It comes with the personality of everyone, Luka was a competitor, since he arrived to Madrid with 13 years old. One day, only 15, he came up to me and said "Pablo next year I'm gonna go with the first team". I was like... "Luka, I have all these players", and he answered "Yes, but I want to know, I have to be ready". His way was very mature for his age, I don't know personally Wembanyama. I think he's a great talent, I think everybody's waiting for him, buy also great talents need their time to develop, Luka developed very quick, I think Wembanyama is gonna need more time.
Last year first round pick I think was Chet Holmgren, he's a great player, but he got injured. We didn't see Luka getting injured, and a lot of people think he's out of shape, he's gonna get hurt, but Luka every night is performing. I think it's gonna take time, but Wembanyama's gonna become a really great player. I can't talk that much about Wembanyama, because I don't know him personally, but I know Luka and I always said that he was gonna be a great star of the NBA, because when everybody talked about his basketball potential, I always said his basketball potential was in his mind. You cannot buy that, that's why I respect a lot Luka's way."
Solaini: But do you think at that time he could have become that good that is today, that he could have dominate the NBA?
"Yes, from the beginning. Easily. He has an adaptability that is incredible, he gets somewhere and he knows what's going on. He goes to a bar and he fits on that bar, simple like that. We re not talking only about basketball. So, when everybody used to tell me that in the NBA he couldn't have adjust, for his body and so on, I said "You don't know Luka, he's gonna adjust". That adaptability you have it inside of you, and in Real Madrid we work a lot, for many years, to make him be like that and I was sure that when he got to the NBA, he was gonna be like that."
Marzagalia: Going back to something a bit more technical, your Real Madrid played for 10/11 years some of the best basketball I've ever seen in Europe, i remember particularly your “side fastbreak”, conducted by a great champ like Sergi Llull, that was something really really special. Do you think there’s room actually for a real "fastbreaking team” in European basketball? Let me add that I asked the same story to Zeljko Obradovic three years ago and he told me: «Fastbreak is great, early in the season everybody wants to run, then they start to get tired and start to play halfcourt».
"True. Zeljiko is a master and he's right. Fastbreak is difficult to maintain during the time of a year, because people start getting tired and you're not able to run that much. For me, having a team that runs the floor, that doesn't mean to go out there and telling them to run and shoot the ball. You've to have rules, that a lot of the time are gonna help the team to run. Where do I run? When do I run? In what situations? I'm gonna put a quick example.
Do you think that we give room to the big men to run? No, and we have to work on that. Give them situations where they can run, and if a big guy runs, let's feed him! Don't make a big run for nothing. Another situation, we have a player that is good on the fastbreak, and we create an open jumper after only five second. He's a good shooter, take that shot! But with the rules that are good for the team, creating that culture is not easy. It's true what Zeljko said, for coaches, you want to play good basketball and we all want to run because we know that if we have that rhythm we're gonna have more opportunities to score, but, as Zeljko knows, when they stop your fastbreak, you have to play basket 5vs5 and you have to do it the right way. I think it's really important to combine both of these things, and also that your team's able to play fastbreak and transition offense, the way that from fastbreak you can also play good transition, and that's an important thing that you have to work with your time if you wanna do it well".
Marzagalia: Coach, I want to go back to something you told me twice, in Belgrade back in 2018 and in Tenerife for the Supercup, that I will never forget: «I will never be the one telling you that defense is more important than offense or the opposite». This season is showing some kind of increase in the importance of offense, compared to the past, and actually the leader in the EL standing has the second offense as well as the second best defense (looking up to offensive and defensive rating). Can you tell us something more about those words and how do you manage that situation, that balance between two ends of the court?
"Listen, you used the right word, "balance". You cannot be a great offensive team and "silly" defensive team, if you're good in offense, it's because you're good in defense: you recover the ball, somehow. If you have to play 5-on-5 every time because all the teams are scoring on you, than you can't run and you won't have a good transition, your offense will become worse. You talked about Olympiakos, second best offense and defense, for me it is the most solid team in EL, because they're playing very well from the beginning, they've very clear their roles and they're up in the standings, but they're not first in offense and defense. That talks about the balance, and how important is that balance, I wouldn't like my team to be defined as an offensive team, if we don't play defense we're not gonna win.
You know the famous sentence "Offense wins games, defense wins championships". Okay good, I want to win games and championships! I need a good offense and a good defense, that balance is very important. When you take a look on these statistics, they don't show you the reality, we all coaches manage different statistics that are most important for us. For example, who's the team who shoots more three pointers, that stats is important, because if I'm playing that team I have to know that they're gonna shoot a lot of threes. But I think it's very important that we realize those things, and we understand how important it's gonna be defense and how important it's gonna be our offense, if we want to be a solid team. It's not a thing we're playing great defense, but we can't score a basket, if you want to win, you have to play offense and defense both well. Basketball is up and down on the court, not only defense or offense. If you watch hand-ball, for me it's unbelievable when I see a guy scoring a great goal, and than that he's running out and an other guy runs inside to play defense, you cannot do that in basketball.
You need to play good offense and defense, here's an example. I had probably one of the best on-ball defenders ever in Euroleague, Jeffery Taylor, was he playing just because he was playing good defense? No, it would be very stupid for my part. He was very effective for corner threes, he was good on cuts, he was able to drive, penetrate and create plays. At the end you value what he's giving you in defense and offense, because I hate when somebody watch a game and say "play this guy becausee he scores!", how about if he scores and receives 60 points from his man?
But he scores 48, you can tell. Well, that happen only on one game, that was between Arlauckas and Woolridge, I was on that game. Arlauckas got 63 I think and Woolridge 48, so I went to the locker room and said "Joe, you're very friend of Woolridge, uh? Everyone's gonna talk about your 63, no one it's gonna talk about 48 received by him!", and he answered "But I beat him by 15!". Well, it was not easy to win that game... It has to be a balance between offense and defense - mandatory! - you cannot be a defensive coach or offensive coach, you're team has to play good defense and good offense to be a good team."
Solaini: Thank you coach fro staying with us, we enjoyed a lot and so will do the people who will watch this episode! Best wishes and see you soon where we want to see you, on a Euroleague bench!
Thanks, thanks a lot!